Groovin' Griot

[00:00:00] Margit Edwards: So the way I think about dramaturgy is it's , it's very much about the structure of the thing, right? , But taking a step back from that, it's really about all the influences that have been drawn upon to make a thing.
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[00:00:23] OreOluwa: Welcome to Groovin Griot, a podcast about how we use dance to tell stories. I am OreOluwa Badaki
[00:00:29] Azsaneé: And I'm Azsaneé Truss. Let's get grooving.
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[00:00:48] OreOluwa: So season two of Groovin Griot is all about taking you behind the scenes in the world of dance performance and research. Last episode, we took you behind the scenes of a piece I worked on called seed and [00:01:00] sound and told you the story of how the piece came to be.
[00:01:03] Azsaneé: That's right. And on today's episode, we are taking a closer look at a practice that is often behind the scenes in performance work, but it's an important part of how research informs performance and vice versa. We're talking dramaturgy.
[00:01:13] OreOluwa: Dramaturgy can be many things, but for the purpose of today's episode, we're centering the parts of dramaturgy that are concerned with how historical, social and political structures inform performance structure.
[00:01:24] Azsaneé: To help us unpack this, we talked to Dr. [00:01:26] Margaret Edwards, a lecturer in the Theater Arts program at the University of Pennsylvania, and an affiliated faculty at the Center for Experimental Ethnography. Shout out CEE!
[00:01:34] OreOluwa: Whoop, whoop!
[00:01:36] Azsaneé: Dr. Edwards shared with us a bit about her background as a dancer and how that led to a career of bridging research and performance.
[00:01:44] Margit Edwards: As a young dancer, my training was with people who had been company members with, of, uh, the Eleo Pomari, dance company. And, I mean, you know, a, the Ailey of the eighties [00:02:00] was sort of. The dominant established place you were headed, if that's where you were headed as a dancer?
[00:02:08] Azsaneé: One could argue still…
[00:02:09] Margit Edwards: still, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but there was also all this other , sort of a lot of people sort of breaking away from that path also, in downtown New York. So there was a lot of experimentation going on, the early days of the, of Billie Jones and, uh, Arnie Zane company and being in dance studios in, in that, in that time period.
[00:02:32] Margit Edwards: And so, you know, I was trained, I was, you know. Horton, Graham Dunham. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, West African , the trifecta.[00:02:40] the trifecta, exactly.
[00:02:41] Margit Edwards: Um, but then also really intrigued by what some of some more experimental sort of postmodern dance folks were doing. And then, you know, also drawn to theater and sort of what, you know, what that was ha doing there.[00:02:56] Uh, from California originally, and I moved back to California [00:03:00] and and that it's in California, that I, in Los Angeles, where I, was introduced to Afro-Brazilian dance.
[00:03:06] OreOluwa: In addition to being a dancer, Dr. Edwards has training in acting and theater and is attuned to how storytelling can unfold on the stage.[00:03:14] She's experienced with Afro-Brazilian dance forms, specifically dances involving the Orishas who are deities and energies from Yoruba Cosmologies.[00:03:23] These dances opened up new ways to tell stories on the stage for her.
[00:03:27] Margit Edwards: I started, when I found Afro-Brazilian dance in, in Los Angeles. I took to it, uh, immediately and I really resonated with, the, the storytelling nature of Orixá dance in particular. And, uh, in the learning about the Bloco Afro tradition. [00:03:47] Who's making it, and who's dancing it or playing it or performing? And I remember the first real question I had. I was, I was writing my, my master's thesis and it was an ethnography of the [00:04:00] company, of the dance company at that moment.
[00:04:02] Margit Edwards: And, our mestre, Luiz Badaró [00:04:05] He's from Bahia. He is one of the , the generation of dancers from Salvador who sort of created the, dance, dance Afro and, and, Bloco Afro kind of Samba reggae [00:04:20] from that generation. When the Bloko Afro, Samba Reggae thing really blew up and from his neighborhood, he was like, he choreographed and taught, and he was a student of Mestre King [00:04:32] King[00:04:32] who.
[00:04:33] Margit Edwards: Who in Brazil, in Bahia and then in Brazil in general was really sort of the one to take, Afro-Brazilian dance language and. And innovate it through, sort of modern dance, you know, sort of western modern dance ideas about how you put dance on stage. And, and he, he's the teacher that Badaró, Luiz Badaró , [00:05:00] Roseangela Silvestre, if you know her name.
[00:05:01] OreOluwa: Yes, [00:05:02] I did her workshop last summer.
[00:05:03] Margit Edwards: You did? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. They were his students and we, you know, my, we were their, we are their students. So that's sort of our, my, the lineage. The lineage, yeah.
[00:05:13] Azsaneé: working with Afro-Brazilian dance forms and dance teachers, Dr. Edwards began to notice a particular storytelling structure that ended up shaping the questions she pursued during her doctoral studies.
[00:05:22] Margit Edwards: So I, I was, I I, there was this one stock ballet that gets done in, uh, called Puxada de Rede, which is pull the net, which is about the, the fishermen.[00:05:36] And the fishermen and the lavadeiras, the, the women the who wash, who wash and, um, sort of are on the shore or at least in the ballet, they're sort of, you know, it's all sort of conflated to this, you know, this story and nice,
[00:05:51] OreOluwa: nice and like packaged narrative,
[00:05:53] Margit Edwards: know? Yeah, yeah. , And it's a standard, , section of the, of the standard folkloric show. [00:05:59] Right. [00:06:00] Um, and I just ask because. And, and, and there's a, a, an appearance of Yamanjá in that, right? So Yamanjáis honored in that piece. Um, and I remember asking Badaró, I was like, well,[00:06:13] where did this piece come from? Like, who made this piece? Right? And it's like, how old? And he, I was like, is this your choreography?
[00:06:18] Margit Edwards: Is it, you know, because it was the same every time we did, you know? And he said, oh no, this is 30 years old. So it was like this whole, you know, history, this and this whole tradition of taking, what people do on in, in their town or in their neighborhood or their right. The traditions that they do, and then transforming them and turning them into something that then goes on to a Western style stage.
[00:06:49] Margit Edwards: You know, eventually that's sort of what led me. To the, to the dissertation idea of, um, village on the stage and, [00:07:00] and looking at that and,[00:07:01] once I had that thought, anytime we went to see almost any folklore group, I was suddenly like, oh, it’s “village on the stage”. Mm-hmm. Oh, there's another “village on stage”.
[00:07:15] OreOluwa: The idea of “village on the stage” offered Dr. Edwards opportunities to work not just with creative movements that mattered to her, but also with social movements.
[00:07:23] Margit Edwards: Um, it's sort of where I've found my politics in, in the sense I came, I come from a family of artists who are politically engaged, but I hadn't, I hadn't quite found that for myself yet. I hadn't found how to connect in that way. And it was in doing, you know, Bloco Afro choreography, you know, through the streets and on stage, whatever, you know.
[00:07:51] Margit Edwards: But this idea of dancing your politics, which is so, you know, embodying your politics in, in and through dance, it [00:08:00] doesn't have to be, embodying your politics, doesn't have to be showing up for a protest, right? You can embody your politics in a, in, in a different way. And so, that was really key for me
[00:08:11] Azsaneé: with that, it's time for another movement break. Dr. Edwards talks about power and politics and structure within embodied storytelling. An example of this is the Peoplehood Parade.
[00:08:21] Ore: The Peoplehood Parade is a Philadelphia tradition that foregrounds the power of performance and storytelling for political and social movements. The event brings together artists and neighbors and activists to address how the structures within the stories we tell are connected to the structures within the societies we live in. Here's a short sound collage from the event.
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[00:08:39] Jennifer Turnbull: The annual Peoplehood Parade and pageant is a handmade and people power, celebration of solidarity, creativity, and courage. A day of participatory theater. You all are participating. [00:08:59] Good job. Thank you for [00:09:00] our extra participant participants in the back there, giant puppets, drums, and a city wide parade happening right here in West Philadelphia. And it reminds us of our collective power and the importance of joining together against oppression.
[00:09:17] *Crowd Singing*.
[00:09:39] Sam Rise: We're gonna be using your energy and our energy combined to do this hard and loving work of building the world we want. Because that's what the pageants is, right? It's practice for the work we do when we leave here. Yes?...Ya’ll are about that life, right? So you're gonna sing with us, make some,[00:10:00] you're gonna chant with us, make some noise.[00:10:05] You're gonna do a little coordinated movement when it's time. Time makes a noise. Woo. And most importantly, when you are called, invited, challenged, to connect with the organization's, organizers, mutual aid work, and community members here to get together to collaborate with us in that building when we leave here.[00:10:24] You’re gonna do that too, right? Woo. I know that's right. You gotta make some noise for the Peoplehood Band. They're gonna be teaching us the music we need to keep this thing moving.
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[00:10:34] OreOluwa: Welcome back. We hope that movement breaks spark some thinking about performances that center political, creative, and collective expression, while also providing tangible opportunities for folks to mobilize.
[00:10:45] Azsaneé: Returning to Dr. Edwards work, she was[00:10:47] a founding member of Viver Brazil, a company which quote creates culturally rooted and aesthetically bold Afro-Brazilian dance theater with its signature blend of ancestral practices, street styles, and live music, addressing [00:11:00] contemporary issues of racial and social inequity towards a radically reimagined future. [00:11:04] There she began working through questions about how modern and traditional dance forms work together.
[00:11:09] Margit Edwards: At the time, there was a, a tension, so this is like the late nineties, and there was this tension between. The folkloric and the modern, or the contemporary, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the right, and who's doing what and what's authentic. And if you, you can't mess with this tradition, but you, you know, and if you're doing that stuff, then you're sort of.
[00:11:34] Margit Edwards: Outside, you know, there was a lot of that going on. Mm-hmm. Um, and you sort of were being asked to plant your flag, you know, in a certain way. And yet again, there was, there were people who were re resisting that and saying, you know, there's, I mean, there's this stuff, tradition is still contemporary. It still is about now, you know, we can innovate and we can do all these things.
[00:11:58] Margit Edwards: And so, [00:12:00] the company I was with Viver Brazil Dance Company who I was a founding member of. Um, and I'm so proud that they're still kicking. 'cause that's that's
[00:12:09] OreOluwa: And they're bringing some incredible choreographers from, from Brazil
[00:12:12] Margit Edwards: From Brazil. Yes. Yes they are. Um, and, but in those early days, you know, we started out as a. Folklore troop.[00:12:20] You know, we performed at festivals, we performed at the zoo, we performed at,
[00:12:26] OreOluwa: I had a show at the Philadelphia Zoo like two months ago, and I was like… This is part of,
[00:12:29] Azsaneé: I didn't know that. This,
[00:12:30] OreOluwa: the world. This is part of the world I'm in.
[00:12:31] Margit Edwards: It never goes [00:12:32] away. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:12:34] So, we were all sort of having this feeling of like, okay, we've got the, what they called the Rice and Bean show, or [00:12:42] you [00:12:42] like
[00:12:42] Azsaneé: your staples
[00:12:43] Margit Edwards: the staple, yeah. It was the Rice and Bean show. Um, and, you know, there were many elements to it and, and, there could play with it and, it was, there was a, a vast repertoire in that show, but.
[00:12:57] Margit Edwards: I started just asking questions, right. I [00:13:00] started asking questions like where, 'cause I had gone down with the company and separately also to, study in Brazil to, experience Candomble. There's so much from, that we can learn from what they are doing in ceremony, but it's different, you know? And, so I had started, you know, questioning that. Like, what are, what is it that we're doing?
[00:13:22] OreOluwa: For Dr. Edwards, pushing the boundaries of the Rice and Beans show meant challenging the constraints that came with prominent folkloric structures like “village on the stage”.
[00:13:31] Azsaneé: right? Even though having the village on the stage was already a format that lived outside of the norms of traditional Western performance, it still comes with certain expectations and limitations,
[00:13:41] OreOluwa: Dr.[00:13:41] Edwards wanted to continue to think outside of the box in terms of what performance can be.
[00:13:46] Margit Edwards: But then it also began to be sort of a trope and a trap, right? [00:13:54] So we would go to do a show and we would've worked on maybe trying to innovate some [00:14:00] section of our show and have maybe some dynamic lighting or something like that. But, you know, when you go to. When you travel and you go to venues, they're like, okay, this is your grid, this is your lighting grid.
[00:14:11] Margit Edwards: This is, this is, these are your options. And then, and, and I remember distinctly sitting with a lighting designer and she, she was like, oh yeah, “village on the stage” and. So the first person comes out in solo, and then when the group comes out, then just all the lights come up. Right?
[00:14:27] Margit Edwards: Just, you know, like, no, like no creativity, no thought about what's actually going on. It just, and it was, and I could, I started to just hear that it was just all part of this larger trope of, oh, that's what folklore performance is, period. And part of what [00:14:47] is[00:14:48] The barrier to, to people perceiving it as something more than that. [00:14:53] I mean, folklore itself is, doesn't need to be necessarily perceived as more than [00:15:00] it is, but there were these limitations being placed on it, right?
[00:15:04] OreOluwa: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:05] Azsaneé: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:05] Margit Edwards: Um, and that meant, of course, you know. Different, you know, specific kinds of performance opportunities and specific kinds of venues that you could be a part of, right?[00:15:18] You weren't, you weren't considered to be part of the, um, uh, if there was a, a festival of, let's just say it was just solos and duets, right? And if you came with an, with a, a really beautiful, you know, Iansã solo[00:15:36] that[00:15:36] was choreographed. Right? It's choreographed, there's an artist behind all of that, right?
[00:15:40] Margit Edwards: Making something They sort of think it's like, well, no, that's folklore, that's just the people dancing, so Right. Technique. So there's, you know, but it's like, no, there's, there's technique there and, and there's, there is an artist who's not necessarily the person dancing, I mean the person dancing, but there's also a [00:16:00] choreographer who is creating something and shaping it.
[00:16:04] Azsaneé: in addition to her work as a dramaturg, Dr. Edwards has experience in ethnography, a methodology Ore and I work with as well. We asked her how she saw the relationship between ethnography and dramaturgy.
[00:16:15] Margit Edwards: So, doing ethnography was really important for me as an, entrée into being a scholar and thinking, because it meant that I could. I could draw from what I knew. Right. It wa it, you know, and really knew, and the thing I do love about the, the field of dance in, in academia is that so many of us are practitioners or have at least come from a place of practice. And so there is a a bodily knowledge that you have.[00:16:46] but, the real skill that. ethnography taught me was, observation of [00:16:54] everything
[00:16:55] Margit Edwards: sort of around you, sort of the environment, but also your [00:17:00] interaction with it. , And then how to describe what you're writing. Right. I, I love. I love thick description [00:17:10]sometimes to excess
[00:17:14] OreOluwa: You're not alone.
[00:17:14] Margit Edwards: Yeah. Uh, you know, once I, once I learned about thick description and then started to do it, and actually it became quite poetic to me to, to really go deep into, descriptive, writing like, and, the skill of being able to [00:17:33] look at [00:17:34] something and then not try to interpret it right away,
[00:17:39] Azsaneé: Mm.
[00:17:39] Margit Edwards: right? [00:17:40]But just, just try to see what, write what you see or say what you see. That's the first step and, and it's actually, that's probably the thing that has carried over into my teaching the most strongly, right? Just say what you see. Don't interpret it. [00:18:00] Right. But, you know, we're all trained to interpret right away.
[00:18:02] Margit Edwards: Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, humans interpret, we look for meaning everywhere. Right. So that skill of being able to, of learning how to, just to observe and then to observe small things, and then try to describe, just describe what you see without trying to make it anything.[00:18:22] Right. Let it be what it is, and then come back to it, and then let that speak to you and tell you what it wants to tell you.
[00:18:33] Margit Edwards: So that's the part of ethnography that has sort of carried over for me. And then when I got introduced to this idea of dramaturgy.[00:18:43] It's like dramaturgy [00:18:45] you know,[00:18:46] what is that? In the theater world , people are often, they're like, oh, get the dramaturg away from me. They're, unfortunately, they get this, they have gotten, um, this, reputation as being sort of gatekeepers of mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Um, of the text, like, you know,
[00:19:02] OreOluwa: A purist approach
[00:19:03] Margit Edwards: Purist. Yeah. And, and that's really not what the dramaturg is. And actually through, the person I worked with at the graduate center, Peter Eckersall, he's from Australia. Initially, I wasn't sure who I was gonna be able to work with because, in the theater program there wasn't anyone doing sort of African or African diaspora work, not in performance realm.
[00:19:27] Margit Edwards: But Peter was from Australia and he had done a lot of work with indigenous performers and, dramaturgy and contemporary. He was also very much, involved in contemporary performance. So he was able to help me to understand and to, you know, give me things that would help me think through this idea of dramaturgy and what, what is it?
[00:19:48] Margit Edwards: ', So the way I think about dramaturgy is it's , it's very much about the structure of the thing, right? , But taking a [00:20:00] step back from that, it's really about all the influences that have been drawn upon to make a thing.[00:20:08] The work of dramaturgy is sort of the bridge from the idea to the thing that appears[00:20:16] on stage. Right.
[00:20:19] Margit Edwards: And that's where the eth sort of ethnography and dramaturgy sort of came in for me.[00:20:25] Um, because it's sort of the same approach, dramaturgical approach to an existing thing. Is not to say,[00:20:35] oh, I am gonna do a feminist analysis of this piece. Right. And then look for where
[00:20:43] Azsaneé: The feminism is,
[00:20:44] Margit Edwards: is, right.[00:20:45] It's saying, okay, what is this piece? Yeah. And taking like. You know, sort of setting, putting yourself in the place in the world and allowing that world to talk to you. And then I use those [00:21:00] skills from ethnography and try to just
[00:21:02] OreOluwa: observe,
[00:21:03] Margit Edwards: observe and then, you know, write, note, what did I see? What you know, and try to be as descriptive as possible.[00:21:11]For me, the idea of the world of the play is very much a theater studies idea, right? [00:21:15] And not to impose. What I think, right? It's the same thing of stepping into a world that we have to step into as, as an ethnographer, right? It is its own world. It has its own logic. And so the first thing, whenever we step into a new, it’s like how does this place work?
[00:21:32] Margit Edwards: Right? What's the, what's, what's the structure? What, how do I cross the street? How do I catch the bus? Mm-hmm.[00:21:40] And it's, so, I'm not just looking at the, the choreography. Choreography is an element of the dramaturgy, right? The setting is an element of the dramaturgy.[00:21:55]The initial idea that the artist had to make the [00:22:00] piece is part of. The dramaturgy, what the performers are bringing to it, what happened in the rehearsal process, what, what got made and then thrown out and, you know, but then also, you know, the social, political and economic conditions right?[00:22:17] Are, are a part of theatrical piece that we end up seeing.
[00:22:24] Azsaneé: We also discussed some of the ways her ethnographic and dramaturgical work show up in her teaching.
[00:22:28] Margit Edwards: What I would say is that where I've had the chance to really practice some of these things is in my teaching. So I teach movement for the actor here. And, we will sometimes work with the idea of archetypes, and do animal work[00:22:42] and really like pushing students beyond realism,, to connect with the fact that.
[00:22:49] Margit Edwards: It doesn't have to be representational, being able to bring them to work like, uh, Nora Chipaumire's work where it ju immersive or anything that sort of, [00:23:00] expands this idea.[00:23:02] Um, always sort of takes them aback, you know, and then they're like, oh, now what can we do? You know? I, I just did this piece with these students.
[00:23:12] Margit Edwards: And it was, we were using the work of Suzan-Lori Parks, and sort of inherent in her work is a breaking down, although, I mean, she's sort of hyper theatrical and hyper presentational, um, in a cer in a, in a particular way, which ends up breaking down a lot of that sort of fourth wall.
[00:23:34] Margit Edwards: And working with the students to sort of, grapple with that and to, push the, um, Suzan-Lori Parks, uh, these, this great phrase, rep and rev, repetition and revision, and it's like, that's a, you know, inherently African aesthetic about [00:23:49] you know, how something develops meaning, but also how it innovates within itself, you know, iterates and iterates and innovates and, you know, um,
[00:23:59] Margit Edwards: And, and, that's, [00:24:00] that's always really exciting to me. Um, yeah, I think, now what it really is for me is, I, I look to connect with young artists and give them. Options, to think about, well, does it have to be in that kind of space? Does it have to be, does it have to have this sort of beginning, middle, and end?
[00:24:23] OreOluwa: We closed out the interview by asking Dr. Edwards the questions we ask all of our guests, who are the griots that inform your work and what are you grooving to?
[00:24:31] Margit Edwards: So, and I just, you know, I had, so I have to do this shout out because, uh, my uncle showed up in town out of nowhere
[00:24:38] Azsaneé: as uncles do.
[00:24:39] OreOluwa: exactly,
[00:24:39] Margit Edwards: do, and my uncle Greg. Gregory is, uh, is one hell of a storyteller.
[00:24:47] OreOluwa: Wow. Shout out to Uncle Gregory. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:24:50] Margit Edwards: Uh, so, and he was regaling us last night, so that was always good. But I also wanted just to add, the poet Jayne Cortez, uh, who is my [00:25:00] stepmother, or was who was my stepmother. Um, and so I grew up with her voice and her groove in my head. [00:25:06] And we ju just recently, my brother Denardo, um, her son Denardo, published a complete works. So there is now an anthology, a complete works of, of Jayne Cortez's Poetry.
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OreOluwa: This episode of Groovin’ Griot was produced and edited by me, OreOluwa Badaki, and my co-host, Azsaneé Truss. Our theme music is Unrest by ELPHNT and can be found on directory.audio.
[00:25:43] Azsaneé: Groovin’ Griot is a part of the Network of podcasts supported by the Digital Futures Institute at Teachers College Columbia University.[00:25:49] For another great show from the DFI network, check out the Rediscovering Black and Asian Solidarity Podcast. It offers rare conversation about the history of Black and Asian solidarity current [00:26:00] approaches and its future potential.
[00:26:01] OreOluwa: Co-hosts, Dr. Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz and Dr. Judy Yu feature well-known activists and everyday people who aspire to build Black and Asian solidarity and solidarity among other communities through their work and creative projects. We’ll link to it in our shownotes.
[00:26:17] Azsaneé: That's all for now. Thanks for grooving with us.
[00:26:21] Ore: Like a dramaturg. Ugh. We keep doing that. We practice so hard.
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[00:26:24] *BLOOPERS*